Understanding CITES & The Lacey Act
Understanding how international wood regulations affect your guitars can save you from major headaches—especially when building, shipping, buying, or even traveling with an instrument. In this video, StewMac’s Brock Poling sits down with international tonewood expert Luisa Willsher to break down the essentials of CITES and the Lacey Act.
And as a bonus, Luisa takes us on a field trip to Madinter in Spain—a tonewood wonderland! She gives us a rare glimpse behind the scenes at their incredible stock of woods, plus her expert insight on which species are worth investing in right now.
Video Transcription
Brock Poling: Hey everybody. Brock Poling from StewMac. Today we're diving deep into a world that most people don't understand very well, the world of wood regulations, particularly in CITES and the Lacey Act. This is serious business and you need to really understand this at least at a basic level, what you can and can't purchase, what you can and can't travel with, how to export and import things correctly.
It's really complicated, and having a basic understanding will not only protect yourself, but will also help ensure that the resources that we depend on will be there for generations to come. So to help us unpack all of this, we brought in one of the industry's leading experts, Luisa Willsher.
Luisa works very closely with governments, regulators, some of the world's largest manufacturers, to make sure that we all stay informed and protected.
Luisa Willsher: Yeah, it can be confusing. It's not easy to understand all these regulations, and there's so much information out there, particularly on the internet that's either incorrect or outdated. So I'm happy to be here and to help understand these regulations a little bit better.
Brock Poling: So later in this video, we are going to take a field trip over to Spain to go to your facility, Madinter - which is now part of StewMac. You guys have been supplying a big chunk of the industry for many, many years.
Luisa Willsher: I've been with Madinter for over 20 years, and I do not know another company that has such a wide variety of tonewoods and such expertise. So we're going to have a lot of fun.
Brock Poling: Oh, good. Looking forward to it.
Luisa Willsher: You're going to love it.
Brock Poling: So when it comes to guitar enthusiasts, there's two big sets of regulations that really apply, right? There's CITES and then there's the Lacey Act.
Luisa Willsher: That's correct. So CITES is an international treaty, whereas the Lacey Act is a US law, and these two regulations dictate how wood is traded, shipped, bought, and sold, even as I said before, how musical instruments travel.
Brock Poling: So let's start with CITES then, because it's an international treaty and it applies to all of our viewers, and later we'll come back and we'll talk about Lacey. What is CITES?
Luisa Willsher: Okay, so CITES is the International Treaty of Endangered Species of Flora and Fauna. Basically, it aims to protect all animals and plants from becoming endangered species. It came into effect in 1975, and it includes almost 40,000 species of both plants and animals.
It doesn't just include the plant itself or the animal itself. It includes also finished products, derivatives of those species. So like a guitar or a leather handbag. All of these species of animals and plants are divided into three categories depending on the level of protection they need. So appendix one is the strictest. This includes species that are endangered of becoming extinct, and therefore trade is only permitted in very special circumstances.
For example, Brazilian Rosewood, in some places like the EU for example, permits are required for every single transaction, even between two people, not just for international trade. So with respect to guitars, really only three items are included in this category.
One, as I said, Brazilian Rosewood, the second elephant ivory, and then the third marine tortoise shell, which is used for pick guards and accessories like that. There's also been talk of including Panum, Buca and Appendix one Panum. Buca is the wood used for bows on musical instruments like violins and cello, but for the time being, it's not included. So that's appendix one.
Now, appendix two includes species that aren't necessarily endangered to becoming extinct, but need to be regulated to avoid that happening. This includes Big Leaf Mahogany, other species like Khaya in 2023 was included Padauk, many others. So when you're importing/exporting logs, sawnwood veneer sheets, a CITES permit is required. However, for the time being, all these species of appendix two do not require a CITES permit once the musical instrument is finished.
Brock Poling: Interesting. So there are actually a lot of woods in appendix two, right? I mean, you've got Indian Rosewood, you've got Honduran Rosewood, you've got Amazon Rosewood, Cocobolo, African Blackwood. Really all the diverges are in there. There's a lot of stuff in appendix two. Now let's talk about appendix three. Appendix three is something I've never really fully understood.
Luisa Willsher: So appendix three is when one country requests help from the other countries to control trade. So for example, Peru many years ago requested for Cedrela Odorata, which is Cedar, to be listed in Appendix three,
Brock Poling: And that's Spanish Cedar.
Luisa Willsher: That's correct, yes. Then another country put his hand up and said, we need to control our trade as well. So years later it was introduced into appendix two. Right now, at this moment in time, we don't have any species that we use in the industry in Appendix three.
Brock Poling: Okay. So what I hear you saying though is that Appendix three is country specific and they ask for help. They're requesting help from the regulators in other countries and basically the regulating body, and then eventually if enough people ask, it could graduate from three to two.
Luisa Willsher: Correct.
Brock Poling: And Spanish Cedar is a great example of that.
Luisa Willsher: Exactly, yes.
Brock Poling: So one thing that I've had a lot of conversations with people about, and that seems to trip them up is it doesn't matter once the wood's on the list, it doesn't matter where it came from. Freshly harvested, comes from a church, pew, recycled, upcycled, any source at all - it all then falls under the regulations once it hits these appendixes, right?
Luisa Willsher: That's correct.
Brock Poling: Okay. That was a great overview. Let's kind of switch gears a little bit and let's talk about what this means in practical terms. Because we have so many guitar players. Let's start and talk about this in terms of what a CITES mean to a guitar player, and then let's talk about what that means to the building community, and then let's talk about what that means to the repair folks.
Luisa Willsher: Absolutely.
Brock Poling: Let's say I'm traveling out of the country with my guitar. What do I need to be aware of that I don't get hung up at the border?
Luisa Willsher: So if the guitar is made of appendix two or appendix three listed species, then as of today, you don't require CITES permit of any type. However, if your guitar is made with a CITES one listed species like Brazilian Rosewood or elephant ivory or marine tortise shell or any other species that could be listed in CITES one in the future, to travel with your instrument, you require a passport, a CITES passport. A passport is very different to a permit, and we'll talk about the permit later.
Brock Poling: So how do I apply to get a passport?
Luisa Willsher: You need to apply to Fish and Wildlife here in the US or in other countries, the different authorities. We will put in the description of the video, the link to where you need to go to, okay, you've got your passport, you're ready to travel.
Super important when you pass customs upon export and import, so leaving the country and going into the next country, that passport has to be signed and stamped by a customs official.
Brock Poling: Signed and stamped.
Luisa Willsher: Correct.
Brock Poling: So I need to make sure that they've done both of those, not just in the country I'm going to, but every time I go into another country
Luisa Willsher: Exactly.
Brock Poling: It needs to be signed and stamped. Otherwise I'm probably going to have a problem getting it home.
Luisa Willsher: Exactly, yes.
Brock Poling: So what if I don't know what my guitars made out of?
Luisa Willsher: Well, you should know. You should find out. You should know what your guitar is made of. Obviously if you've got a Brazilian Rosewood guitar, you know it. But we have to think long term. We have to think of the future. So what's in CITES today is not what's going to be in CITES in a few years time.
So let's put an example of Cocobolo. You've got a Cocobolo guitar right now, that guitar doesn't require a CITES permit, but what if Cocobolo goes up listed into Appendix one in the next three years, you're now going to need a passport for that guitar to travel with it.
Brock Poling: So for the big brand guitars, Martins, Taylors, Fenders, what have you- that they all keep very good records. But on some of the smaller built guitars, those records might not be quite as tight as they would be for the bigger brands. So how would I then explain to a customs agent? One is this is what I have, and two is this is when this guitar was built. I mean, it's not like he has a serial number. He can go check in a database.
Luisa Willsher: Right, I mean- often guitar builders do put the date on their labels. That's one thing to help. So you can prove that it's what's called pre-convention, which means that, Hey, when this guitar was built, let's go back to the example of Cocobolo. Cocobolo was not in CITES one, so I didn't need a permit. But if you are passing customs, then you should know an ignorance doesn't mean innocence, that your Brazilian Rosewood guitar requires a permit.
And if it's Cocobolo in the future, you should know that that Cocobolo guitars now, not now, but in the future, might need a permit. Exactly, so it'll need a passport to travel. One thing I was going to add, if you are traveling with your instrument, it's a Brazilian Rosewood guitar or it's got Elephant ivory or Marine Tortise Shell, you go to a concert and this multimillionaire says, I'll give you $2 million for that guitar. You cannot sell it.
You cannot sell it, because you've got a passport. You have to come back home and apply for a re-export permit. Super important.
Brock Poling: How does customs know what the wood is anyway? Right? I mean, what if I have the tiniest little bit of Brazilian Rosewood or, you know we've seen lots of examples of something like Madagascar Rosewood look so much like Brazilian Rosewood that it's often difficult to tell them apart just by looking at them.
Luisa Willsher: It is. You're right. Often I would say that carry documentation with your guitar to prove that it is made of Madagascar Rosewood and not Brazilian Rosewood. Not all custom officials are experts in wood, obviously. And like I said before, there are almost 40,000 species of flora and fauna in CITES, but the majority are plants. So they're not going to always know exactly which species it is, but they can hold the instrument until they can find the expert to come and testify. This is not a Brazilian Rosewood guitar or it is a Brazilian Rosewood guitar,
Brock Poling: But if I've got this little piece of inlay that's enough to make, now I need the passport.
Luisa Willsher: If you have a bit of sawdust, Brooke, a bit of sawdust. If it's CITES one, it's CITES one. It doesn't matter how much it is. You can't go to the official and say, "Oh no, I'm sorry only a little bit."
Brock Poling: Okay, so let's talk about that so they can hold my guitar. I mean, is that all they can do? What are the stakes really? What's the extent of what could happen?
Luisa Willsher: So this is an international treaty, and then every country has their own laws. So I can't speak for every single country in the world, but they're probably going to confiscate that guitar if you didn't have the right permits for it. And then-
Brock Poling: Confiscate meaning I can't get it back?
Luisa Willsher: Right? Quite possibly, yes. Then what they do with it is a decision. There are countries that auction products off, others that put them in a museum or something like that. And then you can also face a fine, and again, that depends on, each country has a different law on how much when it's contraband. If it's over a value of 2000 euros for example, then it can be a serious fine.
Brock Poling: Could it be more than that? I mean, is there jail time and other stuff involved in this?
Luisa Willsher: Can go to jail for contraband.
Brock Poling: Yeah, let's change direction a little bit. So let's say that I have a guitar that I want to sell and it is made with CITES listed woods. What do I need to do to do that?
Luisa Willsher: So you're here in the US and you want to sell that guitar to someone here in the US. No permit is required, even if it's a Brazilian Rosewood guitar, it doesn't require a permit. However, guitars never end up in the trash. So that guitar is going to be sold and sold and sold, and there may be one day the fourth owner wants to export that guitar, sell it or travel with it.
So you need to make sure that you're carrying through a chain of custody. And also in the future, there might be another CITES listed species on that guitar, and it's not listed now, but in the future it's going to be listed in appendix one, and then the instrument is going to need a passport or a re-export permit.
Brock Poling: What happens if you are, let's say in the EU?
Luisa Willsher: For the EU, every single transaction that happens with something with Brazilian Rosewood in it or Elephant Ivory or Marine Tortoise Shell, every single transaction requires a CITES permit.
Brock Poling: So even between countries. So if I'm selling from Spain to France, or if I'm selling from Spain to Spain-
Luisa Willsher: If you're selling it to your next door neighbor, it requires a CITES permit.
Brock Poling: Okay. You just said something a second ago. You said pre-convention, right. Pre-convention, pre-ban, that essentially means that if the wood was used to build the guitar was, in my case, the United States before it was banned, then it would be okay and it would be eligible for this passport. And I take it that date for Brazilian Rosewood was in 1992. I presume that elephant ivory or tortoise would not be 1992. It would be whenever those went into the convention. Would that be correct?
Luisa Willsher: That is definitely correct, but even if it's pre-convention wood used on that guitar and that guitar is pre-convention, you still require a permit just to, it's the way that you get the permit. Everything requires a permit.
Brock Poling: Right. Understood. Once it's on CITES one, you must get a permit or passport depending on what I want to do with it.
Luisa Willsher: Exactly.
Brock Poling: So let's change the gears. Let's move to the builders and let's talk about things that the builders are going to care about. And I think the big one, let's start with is procuring tonewoods, right? I mean there's specialty vendors, there's folks like StewMac, you can go on eBay, you can get it from your friends who are also guitar makers. If I'm trying to buy the woods, certainly responsibly, but then with my real intent of being able to sell this guitar, what are the best practices and what should I be aware of?
Luisa Willsher: I mean, to start with, you should be doing your due diligence when you purchase your wood. You need to find out if it was correctly harvested, complying with the laws of the countries of origin. But I would say that to buy from a trusted supplier, it is extremely important. I can speak for Madinter and for StewMac.
All of the wood that we sell to our customers off to our customers has been correctly harvested, complying with the laws of the countries of origin as well as being responsibly sourced. And so I think that if you have a trusted vendor that you can just go to and say, Hey, I know that that wood that I'm buying from that supplier is going to be legal.
It's going to be legal because I'm buying it from that company, who really does care about complying with the laws and their reputation is extremely important. As you said, we as the suppliers sell to the largest manufacturers, we do not want to be found that we've got just the tiniest illegality in our business because those vendors that we use must comply with the law so that we can comply with the law and make sure that our customers are complying.
Brock Poling: Right. And I know we do help our customers with that. I've handled some of these questions from customers, and essentially our customer service team can help them get the information they need to file for their permits or passports or whatever it is that they're after.
So let's say that I've got wood that I procured from somebody and they don't have the paperwork. Where does the liability fall? Does it fall on the vendor for selling wood that they didn't have paperwork on? Does it fall on me because now it's in my possession?
Luisa Willsher: So if the wood is not legal, everyone in that chain is liable. Imagine if you bought a car thinking it was legal and then you found out that it was a stolen car. You're in trouble and so is the person who sold it to you, but you are going to be with the one that gets the car confiscated and loses the car and you've already paid for it. So you have to make sure that the chain of custody is really taken back to the origin, and like I said, by buying from trustful vendors.
Brock Poling: So in the US I can tell you within the builder community, there's this belief that it says that if the wood is in the US and I buy it in the US and I sell it in the US, everything's cool. The problem only happens when it leaves the country.
Luisa Willsher: No, because if it's illegal, it's illegal. Does it matter? It's one thing that you don't need a CITES permit to sell a Brazilian Rosewood guitar within the US, but if it's illegal wood, it's illegal wood.
Brock Poling: What you're saying is if there is no paperwork, the wood is illegal. Whether the wood is legal, isn't legal with no paperwork from, at least from the eyes of the law, the wood is illegal.
Luisa Willsher: Right, it's extremely hard to prove how old wood is. You've got this statue of Brazilian Rosewood there in some way, you have to prove to the authorities that is pre-1992 pre when the wood was listed in CITES.
Brock Poling: The wood was cut in the United States before 1992.
Luisa Willsher: It could have been cut and been in another country. So it could have been cut in Mexico and be sitting in Mexico. But you have to prove that it was not cut down that tree after it was in CITES appendix one.
Brock Poling: I see.
Luisa Willsher: And if it's on a musical instrument, it's a lot easier to prove a date of a musical instrument or a piece of furniture. It's much easier for someone, an expert to testify that that piece of furniture was made in the 1950s. However, a piece of wood is extremely hard to prove when it was cut.
Brock Poling: So let's take that as an example. I know a couple of builders who recently I think went to New York to buy a bedroom set, which was made out of Brazilian Rosewood, which was made in the late 1800s. They bought it with the sole intent of buying it to cut it up and to make it into guitar sets, and the person they bought it from knew that this was their intent as well.
Since they've already done that and that wood has now been cut up, they can't get this wood authorized anymore, but they may have been able to if they would've left it in the furniture and somebody could have verified the furniture was late 1800s before they cut it up.
Luisa Willsher: You have got it exactly right. Yes, that is the way it is.
Brock Poling: And I was on the hunt for buying a coffee table that was made I think in the 1950s. It was a mid-century modern that at eight inch planks of Brazilian Rosewood. I didn't get it, but that would've been the same situation. If I could have got that table, had someone verify it, then I could have got essentially the CITES paperwork on that as well.
Luisa Willsher: Correct? Yes.
Brock Poling: Alright, so let's talk about that. Let's pivot on that a little bit. A number of years ago, a person contacted me and said, "Hey, someone in our family was a luthier". He died in the late 1970s and he's got a whole workshop full of stuff. Do you want to come take a look at what he's got and see if you want any of this stuff? And I did.
And lo and behold, he's got stacks of Brazilian Rosewood. So if he died in the seventies, clearly that is how would I have ever proved that that wood was illegal?
Luisa Willsher: Right? It's very, very difficult to prove. Like I said, when it's in wood form, if it was in a piece of furniture, then it's way easier to testify. Examples of how you could prove that wood is pre-convention, a photograph of the late grandfather next to his stash of Brazilian Rosewood, and then you have to prove that those are these exact same logs all these years later. So it's extremely difficult to prove. Yeah, that's not really hard. And I haven't seen any cases of Brazilian Rosewood being legalized in log form.
Brock Poling: So the wood, again, back to what we were just talking about a minute ago, the wood, while it is technically legal from the eyes of the law, it is not because I just don't have the proof to get the paperwork.
Luisa Willsher: What I recommend is when a species is listed in CITES to put your hand up to the authorities and say, "Hey-" the example of Cocobolo again, Cocobolo goes into CITES in 2027. Put your hand up and go, "Hey authorities!"
Brock Poling: Well let's talk about that because that's a great point. So I buy wood all the time, and I would say that I do not keep great records about who, I mean when I buy a piece of wood, I generally write down the date I get the wood where I got the wood from, and I can tell the species, but I generally write the species on it as well.
But what I don't do very well is I don't save my receipts, I don't track, I don't have a whole log of all of this stuff. So what I'm hearing from you is that not only do I need to start paying attention to this, but I need to keep extremely good records of which piece of wood goes with which invoice.
So when the time comes, when things get listed up listed on the appendixes that I can go back to the authorities and say, look, here's when I bought this exact piece of wood. Please give me my CITES paperwork.
Luisa Willsher: And if you'd bought it from a trusted vendor, you can go back to that trusted vendor and say, "Hey, I've lost my invoice, but can you give me the invoice that when I bought that Brazilian rosewood from you a couple of years ago?" And StewMac or Madinter can say, "Yeah, sure. Here's a copy of your invoice that you bought the wood from us 10 years ago." You can't do that with some guy that you bought on eBay and you don't even know the company who bought it from.
Brock Poling: Yeah, there's a lot of that. And there's a lot of buy, sell and trade within the builder community. Somebody will reach out to me and say, Hey, do you have a set of this? I'm looking for this. And I said, yeah, I got four or five sets. Lemme send you some pictures. And they said, oh, can I get that one? I said, yeah. And they're like, well, I don't really have any money to pay you. Can I give you wood? Sure. What do you have? Here's some Quilted Sepele or whatever. Sure, here we go. We will do a trade.
Luisa Willsher: Right. So if Sepele goes into CITES, exactly.
Brock Poling: No, I don't have any paperwork.
Luisa Willsher: Exactly. However, if you do raise your hand, like I was saying before and say to the society authorities, I heard that Sepele is going into CITES in three months, in 90 days, I'm going to have to have CITES permits for that Sepele, but if you put your hand up, you're kind of proving it already that your Sepele is pre-convention.
Brock Poling: Okay? So if you keep your ear to the ground and this is going to happen, then you essentially can get the paperwork, even though I can't show a lot of where I got it from or whatever, all I can show you is I had this wood before it went into the appendix.
Luisa Willsher: Exactly, exactly. And by the way, I'm not saying that Sepele is going in, there's rumors. To clarify. Cocobolo is not in CITES appendix one yet. Sepele isn't in CITES at all yet.
Brock Poling: Okay, so now as a builder, I've got my legal wood and I've built my guitar, and now I have a buyer in another country that wants to buy the guitar. So obviously I've got my import paperwork. What do I need to do to be able to sell this guitar to my buyer in the other country?
Luisa Willsher: Okay, is it made with Brazilian Rosewood or not Brazilian Rosewood?
Brock Poling: Let's say yes.
Luisa Willsher: Okay. Brazilian Rosewood. Then you need to apply for your export permit. It's called a re-export permit to Fish and Wildlife. And once you've got that re-export permit, you need for your customer in whatever country it is to find out if they require an import permit. Some countries require an import permit for CITES appendix one, and some countries actually need it for appendix two and three as well.
In the case of Brazilian Rosewood, it is very probable that that country like Canada requires an import permit for CITES appendix one. So you need to do your job by applying for your CITES re-export permit, and the customer needs to do their job to find out with their authorities what permits are required to import that guitar.
Brock Poling: And that depends on where they live. So in some places they may need an import permit and other places they may not. They just need to check with whoever their authorities are that govern this stuff.
Luisa Willsher: Correct? That's right.
Brock Poling: Okay. So then let's say the other way, let's say that I've got a, let's say it's CITES two. What happens in that situation? So it sounds like based on what you said before, I don't need an export permit to send that out. Is that correct?
Luisa Willsher: That is correct. At the moment, the species that we have listed in appendix two and three at the moment do not require a CITES permit for a finished product like a guitar.
But I recommend that when you sell your guitar, you put on your invoice the species of every single part of the guitar, and also if it has a CITES permit number associated to it, like Madagascar Rosewood, put that number on there and then, if and when that species becomes CITES Appendix one and requires now a permit for that guitar, then you're already set.
Brock Poling: There's a log at import, yes, right.
Luisa Willsher: Exactly. You're already set and you have your invoice that proves everything was legally harvested.
Brock Poling: And I am pretty sure I know what you mean by this, but just everybody watching, when you say put the species on there, you're not saying Amazon Rosewood or Honduran Rosewood, you're talking about the plant name of this, right?
Luisa Willsher: Exactly. Genus species, yes. You have to have the species because you can call a piece of wood Rosewood or sometimes it's very confusing that for example, Granadillo here is one thing, and Granadillo in Spanish is actually African Blackwood. Yes, it's extremely important to put the species name on the invoice.
Brock Poling: Right, I want Dalberg latifolia.
Luisa Willsher: Correct, because Alberg latifolia is an appendix two and Alberg nigra is appendix one, and that's your Brazilian Rosewood. So extremely important. Again, if you're buying from a trusted vendor, then they're going to be able to give you all this information.
Brock Poling: And so then to confirm, if I build my guitar and I want to sell to an American buyer, in my case a domestic buyer, I don't have to worry about any of this.
Luisa Willsher: Correct? That's very correct. But I would like to also add that when you're talking about the future of what can happen in the future, there's another question that people often ask me, and that is, "I'm a US citizen and I'm living here in the US and I'm actually going to move to Canada next year, and I've got all this wood, so it's not in a guitar. S
o Madagascar Rosewood for example, requires permits when it's the form of wood." So you have to have maintained all that documentation that you have from your trusted vendor so that you can move country and have all the paperwork that you need.
Brock Poling: So what I hear is a builder buy from a trusted source, I know the wood is legal, and two, keep good paperwork. So when it comes time to move from the United States to Canada or wherever I'm moving that I can get the export permits I need to take the wood with me.
Luisa Willsher: Correct.
Brock Poling: So let's shift gears again and let's talk about the world of repairs and restorations. A guitar comes into my shop and I need to change the fingerboard, and let's say it's a pre-convention pre-and guitar that has a Brazilian Rosewood fingerboard on it.
I presume that if I just take it off and replace it with another Brazilian Rosewood fingerboard, it's not as simple as just like for that I just because it had it on before I can replace it without doing something with the CITES paperwork.
Luisa Willsher: Right, correct. And that's a very good question, Brock. You've got one fingerboard on your guitar with one CITES number, and you've got a new fingerboard that you've bought with another CITES number.
Now, when you take this fingerboard off and you put the new fingerboard on, it's got a new CITES number, because you've now got two pieces, and that fingerboard that you've got here that's broken, has still got its old CITES number. You could still do something with it.
Now, the most complicated part now is that maybe you've got a head plate and bridge and backs and sides with the first CITES number. So now you've got two CITES numbers for one guitar.
Brock Poling: So then let's say that I want to travel with that guitar and I have a passport currently for the guitar. What I suspect you're going to tell me is I need to reapply for a passport again.
Luisa Willsher: Correct.
Brock Poling: Okay. The same would be true if I want to export the guitar to a new buyer, I would have to get another permit to do that.
Luisa Willsher: Apply for your re-export permit. And it's going to have two CITES numbers on it.
Brock Poling: I have a much better understanding of CITES now. Before we go to Lacey, why don't we take our field trip Now? Let's go to Spain. Let's look at what you have in your warehouse, and then we'll come back and talk about Lacey.
Luisa Willsher: Okay. Come drool over some wood. Brock, welcome to Spain. Thanks, Lisa. So we're here at Madinter, and as promised, I would love to show you the facilities and also our fabulous tonewoods.
Brock Poling: I am super excited. Let's do it.
Luisa Willsher: So seeing as we've been talking about CITES one so much in the Brazilian Rosewood, the first thing I'm going to show you is some of the stock we've got left of Brazilian Rosewood.
Brock Poling: Wow, that's fantastic. Yeah, really nice straight grain, and you get like sides with. And there's all the spider webbing I can see. And you only want 17 euros. I'll give you 17 euros for this.
Luisa Willsher: You're missing a few zeros on there. An example of a set of backs in size that we cut from some of this wood. The great thing about this Brazilian Rosewood is that it can come back to Europe, so guitar makers can make the guitars in the USA and sell them to Europe.
Brock Poling: So that makes this wood very special because unlike if I bought a set of legal Brazilian in the US, if it had not been in Europe, I can't re-export it back to Europe. Even though the wood's legal.
Luisa Willsher: Correct, correct. Because of the European law, which is stricter than the CITES convention.
Brock Poling: Tell me the story. How'd you guys get this wood?
Luisa Willsher: One of the previous owners of Madinter, his name is Miguel, his father actually had a furniture company and he heard about this Brazilian Rosewood that was very valuable and knew that guitars were made of Brazilian Rosewood. So he started investing on all this Brazilian Rosewood, and that's where he set up together with Vidal, Madinter. And my husband and I were part of the company.
Brock Poling: That's a lot of foresight. I mean, that was somebody that really was paying attention to where the future was going.
Luisa Willsher: In my opinion is being one of the secrets of our business. This treasure is coming to its end, but we have Madagascar Rosewood, exactly. Another species that if I was a guitar maker, I'd invest in.
Brock Poling: I'm so glad you brought that up because I've been meaning to ask you a question. As builders, it's harder and harder to get good tone woods every year, and the quality goes down and down every year. But as an industry insider, what woods would you suggest that we invest in?
Luisa Willsher: Right. Well, obviously number one, Brazilian Rosewood because there's very, very little left. Another example would be Madagascar Rosewood, because although it's not in CITES one, it's in CITES two.
There's what's called a zero export quota since 2013, which means that it's prohibited to export from Madagascar since 2013. And I can't see that ban being lifted-
Brock Poling: Within our lifetimes?
Luisa Willsher: No way. And maybe not ever. The most common thing is that a species gets up uplifted. In my career, I've never seen a species get downlisted. So I mean, I think that by the end of my career, every species we use in the musical instrument industry will probably be in CITES.
So let me show you another few species that I would definitely recommend investing in. One is African Blackwood. Now, as you know, this species is super difficult to get- very rare. It's in CITES appendix two because it's a Dalbergia.
Brock Poling: Yeah, right. This is really, really special stuff. I mean, this is aside from Brazilian. This is one of the top, top tonewoods because these just make incredible acoustic guitars and it's beautiful.
I mean, it's like you can see the grain in there now, but once the finish goes on this, it'll be just black, but they'll still be grain in it. It'll be amazing. Just imagine a high gloss black sheen on that. That'll look great.
Luisa Willsher: Right. And the sound.
Brock Poling: Oh yeah, it's amazing. It sounds great.
Luisa Willsher: Exactly.
Brock Poling: Fantastic.
Luisa Willsher: And then another species I wanted to show you is Ebony. Believe it or not, this is Ebony. It's not becoming extinct. It's not in CITES, not the ebony from Africa and Cameroon, which is in our case. But black Ebony, which the whole industry wants, is extremely difficult to source.
It's recommendable to invest in black Ebony, but also to start thinking of using lighter colored Ebony. I think it looks beautiful.
Brock Poling: It does.
Luisa Willsher: In fingerboards, backs and sides. I mean the Fender-
Brock Poling: So all ebony, so buy ebony in backs and sides, get ebony in fingerboards, and head plates and bridge blanks.
Luisa Willsher: Definitely.
Brock Poling: Everything. Actually, I built a guitar not quite out of this, but out of something very similar to this, and it turned out absolutely beautiful, and it sounded amazing.
Luisa Willsher: Yeah, I think it's beautiful. I prefer it. It looks like wood instead of a black fingerboard that looks just black.
Brock Poling: Right, exactly. So Luisa, those are fantastic. Those are kind of commonly known as Brazilian substitutes. What are some other woods that maybe people are not quite as familiar with or don't think of kind of in that same category that maybe people should be investing in as well?
Luisa Willsher: Sure. Let me show you some wood. This is Bois de Rose. Bois de Rose is another Dalbergia from Madagascar.
Brock Poling: The other Madagascar Rosewood.
Luisa Willsher: Exactly. You realize the Bois de Rose is "Rose wood".
Brock Poling: Right.
Luisa Willsher: It's not as commonly used in guitars, and it's a beautiful wood. I mean, look at the color of it.
Brock Poling: Oh my gosh. Yeah. The colors and the grain and the variation. It's amazing.
Luisa Willsher: Exactly. Yeah.
Brock Poling: This oxidizes down to a very dark color. I mean it almost like the color of an eggplant. It's not quite purple, it's not quite black.
Luisa Willsher: That's right.
Brock Poling: It's beautiful.
Luisa Willsher: And then we also have Ziricote.
Brock Poling: Sure.
Luisa Willsher: Ziricote has been used in guitars, but just in small quantities. It's not in CITES. And I think it's beautiful. I mean, backs and sides, fingerboards-
Brock Poling: It's amazing. Every piece is so unique and so different. It's like no two pieces of Ziricote end up looking alike.
Luisa Willsher: It is. It is. And it's never boring, ever. I think it's one of the most beautiful woods.
Brock Poling: Yeah. I've worked with this. This takes a little extra work.
Luisa Willsher: Yes. It's very dense. And it's one of those species that, especially the larger factories, they're more hesitant to use it because it's not the same-
Brock Poling: Like the cracks.
Luisa Willsher: Exactly. I mean, it's not the same with a luthier using a piece of wood, taking care of it.
Brock Poling: Take their time, yeah.
Luisa Willsher: Putting wood through a factory.
Brock Poling: Right. On a finished instrument, it looks amazing.
Luisa Willsher: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Once it's finished, once it's varnished. Okay. So I want to show you one more thing that we do here in Madinter. Okay.
So as you know, when you are cutting wood, it always produces waste either because of sawdust, that gets sucked up in our vacuum system, taken outside to our silo outside.
And then there are pieces of wood that when you are producing backs and size, I mean you know that from this lumber, you're going to have bits that you just can't sell. One of our philosophies is to have zero waste. Absolutely. Use everything. So what we do is those bits, and we put it in a machine and that turns them into sawdust and it goes outside into a silo. And we reduced briquettes. And those briquettes are for either the employees or we sell them to local businesses like garden centers, the local gas station, and they can put them in their fireplace and use up the waste. It's all about using absolutely everything. This wood is so precious. We should use absolutely everything.
Brock Poling: Just be respectful of the materials. This is just great. I could stay here forever. You have so many amazing tone woods all in the same location. I can't think of any place I've ever been that's like this.
Luisa Willsher: See, I told you, but we can't stay here forever. We have to finish this video.
Brock Poling: Right. This is not all about CITES, right?
Luisa Willsher: Exactly. The Lacey Act is so important for our US viewers.
Brock Poling: Sure. Okay. So let's get back to the studio. So my understanding is the Lacey Act started in 1900 originally to help curtail some of the interstate game violation inside the United States that they were having with birds, and then essentially became about other things as well.
Luisa Willsher: Yeah, that's right, Brock. It started with birds, then invasive species were included. And then in 2008, wood and wood products finished wood products, including guitars were included in the Lacey Act.
Brock Poling: So the Lacey Act is really kind of a bunch of stuff that Congress has all pushed into one piece of legislation.
Luisa Willsher: That's right. Yeah. It is easier to amend a law than to make a new one. So yes.
Brock Poling: So in practical terms, what does this mean for us as builders or repair people or players of guitars?
Luisa Willsher: Okay, so the Lacey Act is basically that you must make sure that when that wood that you have bought complies with the laws in the country of origin, it means all laws, not just that the tree was harvested in the correct area.
It means that if there's a law in that country that says that you have to play the bagpipes while you harvest the tree, then you have to make sure that that person played the bagpipes while the tree was harvested.
Brock Poling: And it may have nothing to do with the actual harvesting of the wood. It could have something to do with how it was shipped or whatever. Pay the sales tax or anything.
Luisa Willsher: Exactly. That's why it's so difficult because you have to do what's called your due diligence. You have to investigate to make sure that every single law in that country was complied with.
Brock Poling: That sounds prohibitively hard.
Luisa Willsher: You have to make sure that guitar that you bought from your neighbor, who bought from his grandfather, inherited it from his grandfather, who bought it from a store, who bought it from a distributor, who bought it from the factory, who imported that wood from whatever country of origin, every single person in that chain is liable for the Lacey Act.
Brock Poling: Well, that's that's crazy. I mean,
Luisa Willsher: Let's go back to what we were saying before, buy from trusted vendors. If you buy from a trusted vendor, so those big brands, they're buying from trusted vendors so that they know they're also doing their own due diligence. But they also know that if they're buying from a company like Madinter or StewMac, that we know what we're doing.
We know those laws in the countries of origin. If someone says to me, I have some Ebony from Africa, I know exactly what permits are required to harvest the wood, legally, have the transformation permits, have the export permits, have the annual renewal permit of how much timber can be harvested. I know the local laws, the local taxes and everything.
So I don't expect, you can't expect for every single person, every single repairman guitar player to know those laws. But the Lacey Act does stipulate that you have to do your due diligence.
Brock Poling: So in terms of practical speaking, right? So if I'm a player of a guitar and I buy a guitar, let's say for Martin, that what I'm really doing is I'm trusting that Martin has done their due diligence and they've looked into the supply chain and they've bought from people who are trusting. And as a builder that when I buy from StewMac or Madinter, that I trust that they have done their homework on all of the people that have touched it beforehand. So really, if I just make sure that the person that I'm buying from is totally legit and I trust that they're doing their homework, I might be okay.
Luisa Willsher: I think so, because that is one way of doing your due diligence is saying, okay, is this company trustworthy? I think so. So I trust what they're doing. So I'm doing my due diligence by buying from a trusted vendor.
Brock Poling: Right. No one's going to tell you who owned it before them. They're not gonna tell me where they got their wood from.
Luisa Willsher: Exactly. So in our case, for example, we have customers manufacturers in Asia who make for big brands. And those big brands say, I want the guitar I made out of this, that, and the other. And by the way, I want you to get that Ebony from Madinter, because I want to make sure that that Ebony on my guitar is legal. Because those Asian made guitars are coming into the US, they are liable for the Lacey Act. Usually the reason why there's a Lacey Act case is because someone, an NGO has raised their hand and said, there's this illegal wood that's coming into the US. So the Feds don't come in because they have smelt, it's fishy. They've been informed. There's an official investigation that's happened.
Brock Poling: So by the time somebody shows up for a Lacey problem, they're pretty sure that there's a lacy problem.
Luisa Willsher: Exactly. They know what's happened. They know it is illegal word.
Brock Poling: Okay. Alright. And that has happened.
Luisa Willsher: Yes, exactly. And I think that the example is perfect from that Lacey Act case is that it well-known manufacturer that was done for the Lacey Act, but they weren't even the importers. They were buying it from a wood importer who was buying it from a wood importer in Germany, and it was coming out of Madagascar. So who was liable? The manufacturer.
Brock Poling: And while it all ended up working out fine, that it was a huge problem and a huge mess, and I'm sure they probably paid a big fine as a result of all this to basically make the problem go away.
Luisa Willsher: Exactly, yes. And not only that, it was bad for our industry. It wasn't a good thing for our industry for people to think that there's a legal word on musical instruments. There's a really interesting documentary talks about the case, the Lacey Act case that happened in our industry. The name is Madagascar, Lemurs and Spies. It's narrated by David Attenborough. It's extremely interesting and it helps us understand more about the Lacey Act and how we're all liable.
Brock Poling: Great. And we can put the link for that in the description as well.
Luisa Willsher: Yeah, let's do that.
Brock Poling: Not to make what's hard, harder, but the second major defining characteristic of Lacey, we're essentially talking about all forms of lumber. Correct? I mean, all lumber falls under the Lacey Act,
Luisa Willsher: All wood and wood products made of wood-like guitars.
Brock Poling: So we are talking about what there's 800-ish species of Ebony in the world. We're talking about domestic woods, woods that are cut in the United States being sold in the United States. So Walnut, maple, Koa, all of these woods, all part of Lacey, doesn't have anything to do with importer export.
Luisa Willsher: Correct. Everything is included. And I think that we have to keep in mind that the Lacey Act is the US law. So it's for the United States. We have other laws around the world that are very similar. We've got one in Japan, we've got one in Australia, we have one in the UK. We have one in the EU, which is the European Union Deforestation Regulation, which is extremely complex. So we have it harder than you guys in the EU.
Brock Poling: Right, right. So even though we're talking about Lacey, wherever it is that the viewers are from, they are likely to have something equivalent in their own countries, if not more restrictive.
Luisa Willsher: Definitely.
Brock Poling: I got to tell you, this makes my head hurt. As a small builder, how do you navigate through this? I think one, to make sure that we're compliant and we're doing everything within the law that we're supposed to do. But two is to make sure that we're preserving the resources to make sure that we have these woods and other woods for the future.
Luisa Willsher: So I would say one, forgive me for insisting buy from a trusted supplier, buy from a trusted supplier that knows what they're doing is going to do things correctly, comply with all the laws and you're free to go. Number two, invest in species that you like, that you think maybe in the future that they're more difficult to find or they're more expensive. I mean, wood is never going to be cheaper than it is today, ever.
Brock Poling: Right, right. So buy your Cocobolo now.
Luisa Willsher: Yes. And Brazilian Rosewood and Madagascar Rosewood and yes.
Brock Poling: And all of the others, exactly.
Luisa Willsher: Exactly. And then three, I would say that investigate with other species that are already used in our industry. We're not inventing something new, but just not as commonly used. Those are the three things that I would say for today.
Brock Poling: Right. Well, and something else that I've picked up from our conversation today is sounds like you really, really, really need to keep good records.
Luisa Willsher: Documentation. Yes.
Brock Poling: Okay. So big thank you to Luisa for coming in and being our expert and helping us navigate the super complex world of Tonewood regulations. Maybe this has given you some new understandings of what the regulations are and maybe some new thoughts about how to approach building going forward.
The other thing we probably should say, neither I nor Luisa, are lawyers, this is very complicated. So if you have specific questions about your wood or importing things or exporting things, you should probably talk to somebody, a lawyer who can help you with your specific situation.
If you have more questions, drop 'em in the comments and we'll do our very best to answer them. We will get Luisa to help us out and try to get you some good, credible answers to your questions. So Luisa, thank you again. Safe travels back to Spain. For all you're watching, thanks for hanging out with us and we'll catch you next time.
Luisa Willsher: Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you for inviting me.
